Curse

Double Pact · May 28, 2008, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

I'd even say move vod back to 30minutes but that would make for impossible ATs...

Remove daily ATs and bring back the ladder? We can all afford a long MAT once per month. Perhaps give weekly ats with special conditions like prophecies only. (which was supposed to be the point of ats, an easy way of making restrictions).

30min VoD with Ladder reintroduced sounds like a viable solution. MaT wouldn't be any problem at all; you could either just begin earlier or make it a two day tournament (1. day swiss rounds, 2. day playoffs)

Div · May 28, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Getting rid of dAT's and making it ladder-only will turn Guildwars into a Europe-only game. The three remaining Japanese guilds and two remaining American guilds would simply quit from inactivity.

But hey, at least a Euro team would finally get gold after vD now if only Euros are playing! (unless you want to be proud that Uni won it for Europe ^_^)

la_cabra_de_vida · May 28, 2008, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Getting rid of dAT's and making it ladder-only will turn Guildwars into a Europe-only game. The three remaining Japanese guilds and two remaining American guilds would simply quit from inactivity.

But hey, at least a Euro team would finally get gold after vD now if only Euros are playing! (unless you want to be proud that Uni won it for Europe ^_^)

Uni is american, at least that what the ladder says. Anywho, I think the gl should walk at 25 min, and space out the npc waves accordingly.

erk · May 28, 2008, 11:30 PM // 23:30

But isn't it the case that the top order guilds want the turtle until VoD meta?

When you look at how they screamed at A.nets attempts to change things eg. the emphasis on spits a couple of months ago. There was so much QQ that A.net quickly undid most of the changes. No real effort was made to adapt to the new game direction, with the exception of a handful of guilds that had there acts together. It turned out that A.net couldn't break into the comfort zone of the old meta. With that general mindset I see no opportunity for anything other then slight changes at the fringe of the game.

I do like the suggestion of incremental VoD effects from the 10min mark onwards, as long as they ramp up to something substantial.

RotteN · May 28, 2008, 11:34 PM // 23:34

remove a large part of the NPCs but increase the survivability of the remaining ones with better AI and skill bars (yeah, no more archer balls !).

l Teh Mighty Warrior l · May 28, 2008, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

The solution is simple: Nerf defense.

They already did that and look what happened.

Reduce number of npcs, and give another incentive to consecutive morale boosts other than morale. +10% damage boost sounds good. Also, with the reduced number of of npcs have them run to fixed spots spread out enough that not more than 2 get hit by aoe.

Cass · May 29, 2008, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

For example if you deplete total npcs you force another split style GvG as a whole. I my self have done ALOT of splitting in the past, still I don't think my idea of fun is running around like in AB, chasing shit down all match.

Fully agree with that.

I also don't understand the suggestion of reducing NPCs and making morale boosts more important at the same time. These two changes have largely counter-acting effects, so the end result would essentially be the status quo...

Divinus Stella · May 30, 2008, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Getting rid of dAT's and making it ladder-only will turn Guildwars into a Europe-only game. The three remaining Japanese guilds and two remaining American guilds would simply quit from inactivity.

But hey, at least a Euro team would finally get gold after vD now if only Euros are playing! (unless you want to be proud that Uni won it for Europe ^_^)

Yeh only vD won gold, if you ignore eF, EW, PnH and Uni.....
Uni werent great, but i dont think iQ's thumper smite was any more deserving of a gold trim.

lol euros.

InfernalSuffering · May 31, 2008, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Removing VoD back farther wouldn't necessarily solve the problem. As iQ proved, teams will be willing to sit in their base or play hyper defensively no matter the VoD time. The problem that needs to be solved is that playing defensively should never be the way to win the game. The difficulty in doing this would be to promote an offensive and aggressive meta without letting a broken pressure build run rampant (such as the current signet mesmer + wounding strike headache). This can probably be done in a number of different way but the changes I would like to see are:

Remove NPC Skill bars (keep oath of healing on the bodyguard)
In general, NPC skill bars give an advantage to bringing certain skills. A ganker with interrupts will usually have a much quicker time taking down archers than one without interrupts. The other skills on NPC skill bars are usually just damage skills which also limit the characters who attempt a gank. Removing these not only allows more characters to become a gank threat, but also reduces NPC damage output at VoD.

Reduce Amount of NPCs (4 archers 2 footmen 2 knights 1 bodyguard)
This is pretty obvious and seems to be a common idea for the fixing of VoD. Two knights, a bodyguard, and a lord in the lord room are enough. The archers just need to serve as a warning and be place around the edge at the different entrances. It makes it more difficult for VoD-centric teams who have NPCs as a main source of their advantage.

Adjust NPC Arrival Times
First NPCs arrive at 18:30 (2 footmen) 2nd 19:00 (2 archers) 3rd 19:30 (2 archers) 20:00 (2 archers) 20:30 (Guild lord and Bodyguard). This allows for a more gradual VoD instead of just one big bang. Each wave of NPCs comes every 30 seconds instead of every 15 seconds, which increases the time for teams to kill the previous wave of NPCs before dealing with the next one. The Lord and Bodyguard walking at the same time helps prevent a lord gank.

Give the Bodyguard a Protective Amulet Similar to the Guild Lord's
This increases the time a full gank would take, so that teams don’t just lord rush. Otherwise the decrease of NPCs will allow teams to just ignore NPC damage or kill the NPCs surrounding the lord and end the game too fast.

Scale Increasing Damage at VoD 18:00(5%) 18:30(10%) 19:00(15%) 19:30(20%) 20:00(25%)
This should have a similar effect to the adjustment of the NPC arrival times. VoD was created to force and end game scenario, but the current VoD is too drastic. Just because of VoD, the game is played completely different. A gradual increase of damage allows teams to more adjust to the damage and gives more time for teams to make plays before VoD completely sets in, while still forcing the game to have a winner. It essentially would create the same effect that many wish to have with an increased VoD time, but this doesn’t completely kill the entire AT system.

Greedy Gus · May 31, 2008, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

Removing VoD back farther wouldn't necessarily solve the problem. As iQ proved, teams will be willing to sit in their base or play hyper defensively no matter the VoD time.

To be fair, the main fix to this was removing a bodyguard and adding pullable knights. Not to mention that iQ's strategy was more specifically targetted at beating a team too heavily based on movement.

And it was fairly clear that after the GWFC, they made a lot of changes attempting to make the game more spectator-friendly (I think many suggested by axiom to izzy personally) without focusing on the health of the format for actually playing competitively. Instead of figuring out how to make different phases of the game interesting to play and watch (just watch a game like starcraft; it's spectator friendly because the game is constantly exciting with all the adaptability throughout a game), they took the easy solution of simply shortening the time between two fairly static 'stages' of a match (initial flagstand skirmish and VoD).

Though I certainly agree with your sentiment about a focus on offense instead of defense.

Iotan · May 31, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

The NPC fixes above seem to look like an interesting option for changing VoD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Though I certainly agree with your sentiment about a focus on offense instead of defense.

Aside from NPCs, I don't really know how this can be implemented. Increased damage directly helps spike guilds. Decreased maximum life does the same thing. The only thing I can think of that might benefit pressure more than defense/spike would be decreasing max life and healing while increasing armor.

VoD/ViO type shouts are necessary evils in games where virtually neither team do damage but I have a hard time thinking of ways to end the game without benefiting a straight up 8v8 team.

Ec]-[oMaN · May 31, 2008, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iotan

The only thing I can think of that might benefit pressure more than defense/spike would be decreasing max life and healing while increasing armor.

That may be an option but then doesn't that really only effect more condi/hex orientated builds? which then have to make it to vod for that to even occur... Furthermore if said builds make it to vod without already heavily applying some nasty DP on their opponent the build/players pretty much failed anyways.

Byron · Jun 01, 2008, 01:42 AM // 01:42

The current system, methinks, is pretty well balanced in comparison with previous models (ie, post nightfall). It doesn't particularly favor 8v8 teams nor split teams, but often rewards teams that can do both given opportunity.

But, I agree that NPCs are too important a factor at VoD. However, you can't remove the idea of their importance, or else split play will become extinct. Unfortunately, NPC importance is necessary to the game in its current format.

Removing NPC skills will only lead to gimmicky stuff at VoD.

Removing NPCs themselves will greatly discourage split play.

I say leave it alone. Any change is bound to make things worse.

erk · Jun 01, 2008, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Remove NPC's and your removing strategic targets forcing GvG to look more like HA. GvG need more objectives than just 20min of flag capping (aka.relic running without a count)

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 01, 2008, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

The current system, methinks, is pretty well balanced in comparison with previous models (ie, post nightfall). It doesn't particularly favor 8v8 teams nor split teams, but often rewards teams that can do both given opportunity.

Lol wut? The current system rewards teams for packing a shit ton of defense and a bunch of AoE shit to farm NPCs come VoD, and it's been like that for a pretty long time.

Quote:

Removing NPC skills will only lead to gimmicky stuff at VoD.

As opposed to people bringing a bunch of AoE skills for the sole purpose of farming NPCs come VoD?

Quote:

Removing NPCs themselves will greatly discourage split play.

Care to support your argument?

At the risk of sounding elitist: get a clue before you start spouting random things and claiming them as 'facts'.

beren kat jollie · Jun 01, 2008, 09:56 AM // 09:56

sry for my ignorance but what is basically the centric turtle build?

alen · Jun 01, 2008, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Reduce the number of npcs, but at vod make them use a skill that summons another npc (like those in pve)

Wild Karrde · Jun 01, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

When you look at how they screamed at A.nets attempts to change things eg. the emphasis on spits a couple of months ago. There was so much QQ that A.net quickly undid most of the changes. No real effort was made to adapt to the new game direction, with the exception of a handful of guilds that had there acts together. It turned out that A.net couldn't break into the comfort zone of the old meta. With that general mindset I see no opportunity for anything other then slight changes at the fringe of the game.

I do like the suggestion of incremental VoD effects from the 10min mark onwards, as long as they ramp up to something substantial.

The problem with Anets attempt at changing things to favor split builds was the fact that it just made sins crazy powerhouses. It favored splits that required no thinking or timing. mostly due to the inherent flawed nature of shadowsteps, and then the sins degenerate play style.

Splits keep GvGs interesting thats for sure. It just needs to be done without promoting degenerate play. Just my 2cents.

RotteN · Jun 01, 2008, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Well, i guess we all agree on reducing the number of NPC's

Another scenario :

Limit each base to 2 footmen (front gate), 4 archers (2 at each gate), 2 knights (lord room), 1 bodyguard (lord room), 1 guild lord

Now at VoD, the 2 footmen rush the flagstand first. Now change the AI so they swap targets often (as soon as for example 70% of their attacks gets blocked) and also never go on the same target (again AoE bait). This way a team that kept his footmen would get 2 extra AI frontliners (and not just splinter bait).

after 30 seconds 2 archers arrive. They take position at each side of the flagstand (one left, one right). This positioning is prioritised in the AI. They will fire at targets encountered on the way, but never stop for too long.

after another 30 seconds the guild lord charges out, followed by the bodyguard, the 2 knights and the 2 remaining archers (a leader should lead his troops, not join in last).
The 2 guild lords meet at the flagstand (like it is now).
The bodyguard stands just within caster range of the enemy guild lord, directly in front of the flagstand.
The 2 archers stand at each side of the bodyguard, filling the "gap" between the 2 previous archers and the bodyguard.
This way you get a half-circle with 5 ranged NPC's, defending their "terrain".
The 2 knights will engage with the same AI change as the footmen, but also a slight "preferance" to attack archers or bodyguard. They will also never attack the same target, and swap when facing too much blocking.

After another minute, the remaining NPC's prioritise the enemy guild lord as main target.

This will :

a) allow to delay VoD a bit longer while keeping within AT schedule (as lord walks way sooner)

b) at least partially prevent mass NPC farming with AoE

c) prevent NPC tanking with [[escape] / [[weapon of warding] / ... as they will switch targets once you block too much.

Innocent · Jun 02, 2008, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

VoD-centric turtle build wins the mAT. Again. So the question now is: What, if anything, is the problem with VoD? What needs to be done to fix it?

Until ATs are done away with, nothing. Games currently need to end by 25min. If it's not VoD, it will be something else gay.